http://www.nytimes.com/2009/07/15/world/europe/15britain.html
Read the article above and react as Journal #1. Feel free to also comment on the blog to continue or begin the discussion that will be engaged in class. What is your personal opinion about this issue? What are the potential moral or ethical complications?
This is a depressing item of news and the press should not make such a vast deal about the matter. The Downes' couple were old and wanted to face death together.
ReplyDeleteYes I admit that the assisted suicide in Zurich does raise few ethical and conteroversal subjects but it shouldn't be such a vast deal. But hypocritically speaking, assisted suicide should not be legal. Assisting on a suicide is like murder, no?
Anyone agree or disagree?
Actually if people are so terminally ill they they want to die they should be able to. Not always do these people have the rescources to kill themselves. So if assisted suicide should be legal.
ReplyDeleteI complety agree with Anesis that assisting on a suicide is like a murder. If someone begged you to die, would you grab a gun and shoot them? NO! It's unethical, and this situation is the same thing in a diffrent way. Assisiting suicide is assisting SUICIDE; the ending of ones life by choice, and it should not be alloted even if it is done by some fancy medial coctail. We are meznt to die when our body fails, and all other attempts of life do not succed.
ReplyDeleteI see what Aaron is putting out there but for Lady Joan Downes, yes it was acceptable, I suppose (with me, I don't necesarily agree nor do I disagree) because Lady Downes was ill. Therefore, it's acceptable but as for Sir Downes, it was not. He was NOT sick nor was he suffering any horrid pains due to illness.
ReplyDeleteAnd yes thank you Marcell! But Aaron, your opinion is valued as well!
I too say that a life should not be ended in such a matter until your body is slowing detoriating or the person is facing many unacceptable pains and are fated to face death.
Ok anesis but he has been married to her for such a long time and doesn't think he can live without her. How would you feel if your husband or wife was dying from an ilness? He just wants to be with her forever and can't see living without her.
ReplyDeleteOkay love is important but was he ill? The clinic is suppose to help ill people not let healthy people die.
ReplyDeleteYes they were in love (most likely) therefore he decided to kill himself along with his wife but the clinic should have not allowed it. In my view of perception, it is a criminal offense. The clinic assisted in killing Sir Edward Downes.
I'm trying to get across that the clinic shouldn't have allowed it. Yes okay they may die together but the clinic shouldn't have assisted in Sir Downes' death.
Their shouldn't be ANY place to go and have someone assist you with suicide. I always hear about the people that attempt suicide but after some rehabilitation and fixing whatever damage they did do that they went on to live happy, non-suicidal lives.
ReplyDeleteAnd plus you can't reflect after you commit suicide or regret the decision because there is no going back when you're dead, obviously.
Yeah, I get the whole "dying together" thing but he had kids. And even if they're full grown I'm sure it was hard to see not just one parent die but both, especially since Sir Edward Downes had a choice.
Ok, but when it comes down to it its that persons life. What gives anyone else the right to tell that person that they can not drink a drink that will kill them? Does it really affect anyone but that person? Not really it should be that persons sould decision.
ReplyDeleteOn the point where the clinics should be charged with murder no they definatly should not! They go in and give tons of people each day this speacial pill that is going to kill them. If you think its right for them to give it to someone who is sick i perfectly agree with that. But how are they suppose to know who has what? There is no way for them to. These people casme all the way from Britan, do u really think they know what that person has? NO! So they just give out the pills as the people ask for them. The clinic should definalty NOT be charged with murder.
I agree with Anesis. This shouldn't be such a big deal. It's no one's business except the people who want to die. I'm not saying that I think it's right, but if a woman is going to die anyway, why not end her suffering? We put down animals who are in pain. My grandma's dog was put down because of a hip problem. So why not? It seems a lot more humane than forcing someone to keep living even though they're going to die. Sir Downes wasn't terminally ill, but he was going blind and deaf. I don't really think what he did was right, though. It was a bit selfish because both of them left their children. It's still his choice, though.
ReplyDeleteThe clinic was for people who wanted to die. And no matter what any of you guys say it was the couples choice, murder or not. If you agree to have a relationship you would have sex it wouldn't be rape so if you are going to commit suicide and you don't have access to the things to do it with you need assistance not murder. Did the clinic take away any right to live? No they did their job they did what they were asked.
ReplyDeleteThe clinic is where people go when they want to die. Not when they want to get better and the couple knew that perfectly well.Dignatis helps people who are going to die to do it, and if Sir Edward wanted to die with his wife so be it.
Personally, I think that nothing is wrong with this at all and the couple should not be questioned, judged, or looked down upon because of it. He lived with his wife and wanted to die with her, that's respectable in my opinion.
ReplyDeleteI wouldn't exactly say I support assisted sucide, because that makes it seem like I'd like people to kill themselves, but I think it's perfectly acceptable. If someone wants to off themself but don't want a bullet in their head and a big blood mess for a loved one to clean up then why not do it in a more humane way? For situations outside of this, like if someone were just depressed and didn't want to live anymore, then this is still the best choice in my opinion. Besides, it's not as if you just go sign up at a clinic and in a week you kick the bucket. They do a lot of tests and meetings to make sure it's the best thing for them. I don't think of it as murder, or else anyone who was the one to give someone too much of a drug is a murderer too, but instead it gets labeled as accidental overdose.
I agree and disagree in some parts.
ReplyDeleteAnd yes! The media shouldn't be all up in the Downes' business! Why do you want to dwell in on another family's business? You're just digging the knife deeper into the wound of the children. I'm sure that the children were attached to their parents and are somewhat hurt by their parents leaving the world. The media shouldn't dwell on it. Please let NY Times move on. Jeez. Let the Downes' rest in peace, please?
To be accurate Alaura, I think the clinic was for people who wanted to die because they were ill and in severe pain, not for just anybody who wanted to die. And yes yes, if Sir Edward died, let it be but I still say that the clinic should have not helped Sir Edward.
sup guys im with aaron on this one he chose a humane way to die, his loved ones were with him when it happened, and it was by his own will.
ReplyDeleteAnesis if its the clinics job to assist in a persons suicide for $6570 a pop then of course they are going to allow it. If there arent any restictions on who can kill themselfs then why should he have not have been alowed. Plus it was very romantic they died holding hands!!
This shouldnt be such a big deal and yeah like marlee said it is just the same as some other situations puting down a pet or pulling the plug on a relative. i feel that its better to end as many peoples suffering at once then wait for them to do it themselfs. His death was anounced to his family members so they could prepare for the shock.
My great grandmother died in the hospital as everyone else was sitting down for christmas dinner. Imagine the rest of his family reading of how he killed himself some day in the news, that would tear them apart. Sir Downes got most of the suffering over with true their deaths will linger but there will be no teriible shock and denial from his loved ones
I don't understand why this is such a huge deal? The clinic had been administering these drugs for quite a while, and this couple wanted to take them. Where is the confusion? The children were okay with the whole thing and even were with them while they passed on.
ReplyDeleteOne of our most important rights is our right to life, to decide when we live or die, and this is exactly what they did. Instead of letting illness and old age make the decision for them, they chose. No one should get in the way of this. Suicide may not be the most pleasent thing to talk about, but it's not wrong. The Downeses decided when they wanted to die and that is their choice and their actions are in no way anyone else's buisness.
To clear some confusion because I don't think people don't get what I'm saying.
ReplyDeleteI'm saying:
-The media should mind their own business and stop being all up on the Downes' family's business and decisions.
-And that the clinic shouldn't have allowed Sir Edward's suicide happen or more like shouldn't have assisted him.
I'm kind of agree with this. Ethically, they have legal rights to commit suicide. It's completely legal in Swiss laws. Moral it is also right because they didn't want to deal with serious health issues. His wife was dying and he wanted to die with her. Tragic yes. But caring. Assisted suicide should be legal. Our life is our life, even if we want to end it.
ReplyDeleteugh my mom needs the computer so im gone
ReplyDeleteadios mi amigops =]
They do have legal rights to commit suicide but the point is that the clinic helps people like Lady Joan Downes who was diagnosed with cancer unlike healthy Sir Edward.
ReplyDelete(just playing devils advocate :P )
ReplyDeleteI can't believe you guys really think that these clinics are a good thing. Committing suicide is a matter of convenience. The harder it is for someone to commit suicide, the less likely they are to do it. These clinics only make it easier for people to kill themselves. It sounds like this clinic is just out to make money off of people who want to commit suicide. (like i said, just playing devils advocate. It's no fun when we all agree)
but anesis the clinic is just doing their job. Like zach said they don't care at the amount of money their making per person. Who are they to say that he is not allowed to take a pill.
ReplyDeleteI second Jason.
ReplyDeleteMoney is everything, isn't it? Ugh society these days.
The clinic and Dignitas is there to help people who want to die, people with terminal illnesses who want to end their suffering. Going through radiation and chemotherapy day after day brings you so far down in energy and wastes your body away until you finally do die.
ReplyDeleteDignitas helps you to end the suffering in a painless humane way, if Sir Edward wanted to die with his wife that is perfectly acceptable because without her he might have died anyway.
Once you lose your will to live. There is no convincing you to stay alive.
Okay okay. The clinic is doing their job. Yes they are. Y'know bending around rules and all. Hm which is why the legal system is all up in their business.
ReplyDeleteIf the government or whatever is involved, something's wrong, no?
I believe their is a way to revive your will to stay alive.
ReplyDeletedid anybody but me look up the deffinition of dignitas....?
ReplyDeletePeople who assist in suicide for personal gain are allowed to be prosecuted. Dignitas has a neutral policy they have nothing to gain with the death of a patient.
The person who wishes to die must consult their personal docter and a dignitas representative before the act is carried out.
there is a whole article on the policies of Dignitas and if i must I will post it.
ReplyDeleteThis subject is depressing. They should just all back off of the Downes. Anyone agree?
ReplyDeleteThey shouldn't make it such a vast deal especially the press.
Look, if people wanna die before they have to let them be. If you are in so much pain that you can't take it anymore and each day it is slowly destroying you, I think assisted suicide is right. I favor Aaron.
ReplyDeleteIf they want to die.
ReplyDeleteLet them die.
It's not depressing; they wanted to be together in death. Let them do what they want.
You can't make laws that say, "Oh no you can't die. At least not with help."
It's not a big deal. It would kill me to think that someone would want to kill themselves and have someone HELP them but still. I can try changing their minds but in the end, if they really want to die, then let them die.
Oh I looked up Dignitas and it said the following:
ReplyDeleteDignitas is a Swiss assisted dying group that helps those with terminal illness and severe physical and mental illnesses to die assisted by qualified doctors and nurses. Additionally, they provide euthanasia for people with incurable mental illnesses provided that they are of sound judgment and submit to an in-depth medical report prepared by a psychiatrist that establishes the patient's condition as fulfilling the specifications of the Federal Supreme Court of Switzerland.
Just for you guys to know! (:
OH, and by the way, I applaud Anesis for standing up for her ideas, even if it's not mine. She's just been trudging through this whole thing.
ReplyDeleteSally, if someone is about to shoot themselves in front of you, you wouldn't stop them? It's our job to make sure that before someone kills themselves, they at least have the opportunity to have counseling to think through their decision. Does Dignitas have a counseling program? I doubt it.
ReplyDeleteTheir decision is their decision. We can't change that.
ReplyDeleteThank you Anna! I really appreciate it a lot.
ReplyDeleteBut all of you guys participating with me out there are doing a terrific job. I absolutely love reading your opinions. Everyone's perception is different and all and it's nice to see how people differ.
Andy, I think we all have made rash decisions that we have later come to regret. Counseling should be a required aspect of any assisted suicide clinic. If a person still wants to kill themselves after thinking it through then so be it.
ReplyDeleteDecision and fate, who says we can't change that? We're all obstacles to something that can happen.
ReplyDeleteWe as people can be catalysts to events or block something from occurring.
Jason,
ReplyDeleteAs a matter of fact Dignitas makes the patient make a video stating their name their reason they don't want to live and the fact that it's their choice, that is if they cannot write a document which contains this information. And on top of that the doctors constantly remind the patient they are going to die no matter what happens the patient is ready to accept that. The person who wishes for Dignitas to help must also meet with their personal doctor twice over time to ensure this is what they want to do.
If a person wants to commit suicide, they would've put a lot of thought into it. It's not an overnight decision.
ReplyDeleteI'm on the fence on this topic. As a Catholic I believe that if you commit suicide you go to "h...l", you only have one life so live it. If someone helped you kill yourself then the people who helped you kill yourself, should be in some trouble here and will most go to "h...l." They broke the sixth commandment, "You shall not murder." Now thats just what my believe is. However I do understand the idea of putting someone out of their misery, but if you decide to take your own life away when your ill, I don't know if that is okay, but Sir Edward Downes shouldn't have be allowed by the hospital to commit suicide, if he wasn't dying. But this is just how im looking at the whole issue, just because someone gives you permission to do something to them doesn't make it right. For example if a little kid walked up to an adult and said please kidnap me, it would be wrong for the adult to take the child (obviously) even though he asked. It's just like this, this couple asked the Dignitas to basically kill them, saying assisted them in death is just a nicer way of saying this,is the same situation. Your doing something unethical because someone asked you too?
ReplyDeleteAww Ally, you beat me with facts. I was starting to like this whole disagreeing thing too. :P If that's how it works then I'm fine with Dignitas (as long as they don't start advertising lol)
ReplyDeleteI get the idea of the Sixth commandment but still, there are people who are willing to die to get outta this world. Suffering can only be taken so far. We have our limits, bodily and souly (that isn't a word xD). And not everyone has the same limits. So just need to quit while they can take it before they die with pain, anguish, and agony.
ReplyDeleteI'm not one usually one for suicide, but in this case, I think it was okay. They're old, they love each other, they lived their life, and they just want to die together. They had good intentions. So in that situation, the assisted suicide is okay.
ReplyDeleteThe problem I have with this is giving people an opportunity to kill themselves for irrational reasons. If you're old and have a dying spouse, I can see it. If you're like 45, youre still considered too young to die.
Btw... did anyone else think of Romeo, Juliet, and the apothecary when you read this? LOL
I did! Oh my God Gabby I am turning into you!
ReplyDeleteMy iPod fails. Anyways.
ReplyDeleteOh Gabby, that's so weird, I was thinking Romeo and Juliet too minus the Paris!
Also I support Noelle's reasoning.
From a Catholic(Noelle) and Christain's (I) point of view, yes we may be biased because of our beliefs but it is morally wrong. Sir Edward was healthy.
Asides from religon though:
Agony, pain, and anguish, we as humans can be fighters! Of course some people don't know how, they're completly blind to that hidden path. But Andy, I do believe there is a way to at least dim the anguish. People make themselves believe there is no way out, they trap themselves inside the box.
Think out of the box. Realize that there could(I said could, remember that) be a way out, just stop and think. There can be a light, there can be a better solution.
Dimming the pain is just letting the suffering pretend like it doesn't hurt. Humans can also be weak. We all have our weak moments. No one can be strong every minute of their life. But now we are starting ramble so someone get back to the subject.
ReplyDeleteCancer is a terrible disease as it kills slowly and painfully. My grandfather is a survivor of lung cancer and lost two pets due to cancer I can't even imagine what this woman was going through. I believe that people have the right to suicide, and if they wish to end their lives but are physically unable to, they should be helped but in an ethical way.
ReplyDeleteThis couple and people who do the same thing, are taking the easy way out. Sir Edward's wife, whatever her disease was she could have tried to be the small chance that survived or at least she died fighting the disease rather than wimp out. Sir Edward was afraid to live without his wife. He also took the easy way out, he could of morned his lost with his children but instead he took his own life. So basically these doctors are sending the message when you can't take life anymore you just give up and stop trying.
ReplyDeleteDimming the pain is not pretending to act like you don't suffer. It's fighting, being brave. But of course, if all gives out, what can I say.
ReplyDeleteDignitas should stick to their meaning, helping those with severe physical/mental illnesses and terminal illness not healthy 84 year old Sir Edward. I'm not saying that it should have not been his choice but the clinic as a whole should have not allowed it because it goes against their meaning!
Exactly Noelle! You have clarified with more than well for me!
ReplyDeleteIt's possible to fight and seek another solution.
Hm, this article really took me by surprise. I don't think I've ever heard of an actual place where people come for a legal suicide. It's totally unethical, yet kind of understanding in some ways. I can understand Mrs. Downes decision, but Mr. Downes was being ridiculous. He had so much going for him still it seemed. plus that is pretty sick and distorted to let your own kids watch as you both kill yourselves. Isn't that a bit much??? I don't care what people say, that is scarring and they probably need some therapy now. Plus this suicide system is way to complicated. You can't possibly let people die if they are mentslly unstable. They aren't in any condition of deciding such a jepardizing choice. I wouldn't want to be the one to end the lives of people who could have a something going for them and with a little help, could heal. I do agree with Noelle about putting people out of their misery though.
ReplyDeleteHuh, I just read Brandon's opinion. Very good point.
ReplyDeleteOh yeah Sarah, you bet. It took me by surprise too! It was my first time hearing about this then I discussed it with my mom. I was surprised my mum knew about this system!
ReplyDeleteAlthough I'll have to say Sir Edward was not completly ridicolus on his decision, after all he chose it out of love, I'm assuming but the fact that the clinic assisted a healthy man was not correct in decision.
True, what I found ridiculous is that he wished his kids to watch. I forgot to add in that I guess if you really can't live without your other half, do what you know is right to you.
ReplyDeleteOh yeah. I think I might have missed that part.
ReplyDeleteWatching death is not pleasant. It's heartbreaking, I'm sure it is. I don't have any personal experience with death really so I wouldn't say I have perfect image for that side of the topic.
you see, I have other views on this. I was thinking about the putting down of animals and the putting down of now people a couple days ago which is also why I found this strange. haa
ReplyDeleteNo you didn't miss it. I deleted that sentence before I put it in. I don't remember why though.
ReplyDeleteDe-ja-vu? Or however you spell it. -googles-
ReplyDeleteAh useful Internet. :D
Anyways that is quite strange.
I love discussion. I'm strange. I just love it.
Therefore going back to the assignment or blog thing or etcetra, yeah that is pretty wacky but what if it was the children's choice? After all he was 41, you know. An adult must have thought it over being going in and y'know watching it.
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ReplyDeleteOK, I'm fine with "pulling the plug" if some one is in a vegetative state, however, I disagree with suicide. It seems romantic and stuff that couples "died together", but they KILLED THEMSELVES! Death is not supposed to be controlled, it just happens. You never know when your going to die and thats the way it should stay.
ReplyDeleteJust putting it out because I read in Anesis's last comment something that seemed off, Mr. Downes was not perfectly healthy, he had been slowly going deaf and was also nearing blindness, and after a hip replacement he becames almost fully dependent on his wife. So after she had passed one he would have either become a burden of his children, or he'd spend the rest of his days in a miserable nursing home, missing his wife.
ReplyDeleteburden to his children* ?
ReplyDelete